Saturday, May 26, 2007

Ben's map

51 comments:

RunLostiesRun said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LostySmurf said...

(Reply to this post)

Eagle-Eye Mike strikes back... ;)

Absolutely brilliant! I think I'd never found that out. Even the intersection of those two red lines are at different points. They definitely used two different maps! Maybe Michael Emerson has ruined one in a take. So the main question would be: Did TPTB use two different maps intentionally?

Concerning the dot: It really looks like they've copied and pasted that ridge into Ben's map (and I always thought I would be the only one doing this on his map :) ).

Hmmm, the 'barracks' caption seems to be printed on the map while every other item is hand-drawn (even the DHARMA station logo and caption). Speaking of the DHARMA station, I looks like it's a station which name comprises of 5 or 6 letters. It looks more like 'Flame' than 'Pearl' to me but I'm very bad in idendifying blurry items and might be totally wrong.

I'm not sure if there are other barracks on the island and all this map (respectively these two maps) seems to be farce and I don't believe anything on it. Well, at least I'll try to because I know I'll find myself thinking about it again and again... :)

RunLostiesRun said...

Actually, I think you might be right.
Why use two maps. I also discount everything on these maps. Why are we trying to coalesce maps that simply are not the same? I put much more wieght into the screen shots than his maps.

RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,

One more thing,

I noticed something odd about the photo that you are posting. If you look carefully at it, there is a vertical strip that encompases only the Dhama station. It is as if it was added. Take a look.

Eagle Eye Mike Looking For Food:)

LostySmurf said...

That's a production error (namely made by me). I've filled the gaps with similar looking colors. But this is only a temporary solution until I've found a better one.

Sorry for the distraction and inconvenience. So unfortunately, no food :)

Maverick said...

Hey guys,

I watched the episode in HD, it says "Pearl" for sure. It's also printed on like the Barracks.

I guess i'm alone in thinking Ben's map has more relevance then Rousseau's map. Based on another view of the mountain line, i'd say if the maps are the same then camp is either at the bottom of the Eastern plateau, or at the top of the Western Plateau.

Maverick.

LostySmurf said...

Hey Maverick,

usually I would also say that Ben's map should have more relevance than Rousseau's because he a) uses it and b) seems to have pretty good knowledge of the island. But it just seem to contradict almost EVERY other clue we have from the show.

So if we say it's at the bottom of the Eastern plateau the position of the barracks would be wrong (comparing the terrain to the cable map) and the ridge to the left of the Losties beach would be missing respectively beyond the left margin of Ben's map and only missing on Rousseau's. Plus, I don't know how the panoramic shot from S03E01 could fit into this scenario.

The other option (crash site in the North) doesn't seem to make any sense when we see Michael travelling North to the Others in the end of season 2 and the bearing of 305 they followed in 'Enter 77'. I think there are more 'North' references but these are the first that come into my mind.

RunLostiesRun said...

Mavirick,

Could you post a screen shot of the shot where you can read "Pearl", thanks

Mike

Maverick said...

Hey guys,

Sorry for the late reply. Mike, I would have to show you about 10 screenshots, as the individual letters come into and out of focus. But "P" "EA" "RL" is clearly seen. Given that it's the Pearl logo, and about half a day's walk from camp (assuming the radio tower is 1 day), it would seem confirmed to be the Pearl.

Losty, I agree it doesn't seem to work at all. It's possible they are North but the compass North points South, the cable map told them to go SW to find the Barracks which means they would actually go NE, yet they still found it. In one scene you can see much of the mountain range, and it runs down along the page (down being if you drew a line from camp through the barracks and kept going, thats the way the mountain range goes)
That would seem to say the camp is at the top or bottom of one of the mountain ranges.

The Bay by the Barracks would have to be on the left of the page where we can't see (cause we know it's close), but that would put the crash site at the bottom of the page. When Karl left the pascal flats he went "right" up to the beach camp, putting it at the top of the page... it hurts the brain...

I hope I made sense, I just got back from work and i'm tired ;)

Maverick.

RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,

I think Maverick is right. I guess my sites are wrong. I thought the Panoraric view made sense, but now I guess I was wrong. I'm at a complete loss now to where the locations are. Maybe my map is wrong, and should be redrawn. If so, I'll take my map down and restart it. It just seemed to make sense until we saw Ben's map. My main problem is going to be trying to salvage what I already have with ben's map.

Mike

Maverick said...

Hey Guys,

I was thinking, maybe a nice Lost "Hiatus" project would be to make a map based totally on the island geography seen during the episodes.

We can't make a complete map cause we don't see enough of most locations, but we could map out well known sites. For example we could map out the Fuselage-MainCamp-Caves area. On another map we could do the Barracks-Panoramic-TailSection-Flame area.
Using a blank map, ignoring the ones we've seen (until we finish)

The bonus is, once we are done, we could fit it to whatever map we like. And we just might learn more about these sites then we can just looking at alot of screenshots.

Just an idea anyway, what do you guys think. It would also work nicely into the lostpedia pages I am (slowly!) making :)

Maverick.

LostySmurf said...

Hey guys,

Maverick, great idea! Some time ago, I've posted a VERY simple sketch of the 'panoramic shot' area over at the forum of the 'blackrock.nl' site. So I would love to make this one if you don't mind.

And please post a link to the pages your editing on Lostpedia. I browsed some 'Locations' articles some days ago but it's hard to find something if you don't know what exactly you're looking for... :)

RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,

I'm still trying to resolve Ben's map. I thought I'd share what I find as I find them with you, so it give you some time to think about them, rather then waiting until I finish, then overwhelm you with everything at once.

Anyway, I'm attaching an interpretation that may explain the reasoning for the unusual location of the Barracks. The barracks may have originally been in the position shown but posibly moved to the current position. The typing of the word 'Barracks' seems to indicate the Barracks designation was depicted in the creation of the map. Something may have deemed the original location very dangerous, and subsequently, they relocated to the current position. This is just a theory, but I would be interested in what you think.

Mike

Barracks

RunLostiesRun said...

Sorry, forgot the properly reference it:)


Barracks

Maverick said...

Hey guys,

Havent posted in awhile, it's been a little slow on the Lost front :)

Mike, I like the idea the Barracks was moved, but we can't really prove it. It would make things easier but the map would still be confusing.

Im working on getting all the unique screenshots of the crash site that I can for my project. Then i'll start mapping it all out and see what you guys think.

Losty, i'm using an offline mediawiki editor to make my lostpedia pages. So nothing to see yet until im done and upload it. It would get deleted if it's not well done. Right now most of my attention is on my project.

Maverick.

RunLostiesRun said...

Maverick,

What do you think of the screen shot?

Mike

LostySmurf said...

Hi guys,

sorry for the lack of new content in the last weeks. I'm quite busy at the moment and needed a little break but I'll continue my Lost related research soon.

Maverick, thanks for the information about your current Lostpedia status. I'm looking forward to read your articles on Lostpedia and I'm very sure they won't be deleted if they don't contain any speculations or speculative conclusions.

Mike, thank for your interpretation of Ben's map. I have to look at this in detail but here's my first impression: It's really good to see how the map looks in 2D. Well, for my taste it would be too much effort to move the barracks entirely. So my best guess would be that the Barracks on Ben's map are a fake/hoax. Nevertheless, the "collage" of the screenshots is very well done! I tried it too but the distorsion by the camera lense (at the edges of the screen) is really annoying and hard to eliminate.

RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Guys,

I wasn't trying to make a college of screen shots. I thought the balloon next to the Barracks camp might say "STAY?" with the word "suicide" beneath it. I cirlced this with red. That was the reasoning behind the camp being moved, nothing else.

LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

sorry, I've seen that mark but totally forgot to mention that I wanted to comment it later. It's hard to tell from the HD screenshots so I've to see the scene again to get a better impression of this area. Only taking the screenshots into account, I would say that I could agree with the 'S' of 'STAY' but the rest looks more like 'SZUK' to me. And I cannot see anything like 'suicide' at the slope below the barracks. But there are some lines that look like rivers/streams on the ridge below.
Hmmm, I will take a closer look at that scene again.

cypher80b said...

Hey guys,

I watch your work several months now, and i have to say that i'm impress. So i deside to post my
personal thoughts about Ben's Map.

So here is my solution based on
RunLostiesRun Map:

mysolution


I hope that this will help you
guys in your work. Keep your good
work.

PS: Sorry for my bad english :)

cypher80b said...

Hello again,

Here i have the possible DHARMA stations locations, based on Blast Door Map and Ben's Map

StationLocations

cypher80b said...

Sorry for the bad link

Here is the goog one:
StationLocations

RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,
I know you are taking a haitus from Lost Maps, I just wanted to let you know that I'm fairly sure what the crosses indicate. They indicate sighting of Alex. The island named Alex is a mistake. I was able to tease out "Alex '+' (unitelligable)" beneath the island. The island is not named Alex. It's just that Rousseua's note location made it is easy to missinterpret.
Also, I was finally able to resolve Ben's map. When I get time, I'll post my resolution of his map. His map actually is accurate, but very unusual. Apparently, Ben's map only displays elevations that are within two separate thresholds.

I've been working on identifying locations. I'll probably eventually change my blog to something similiar to yours. What I've come to realize, is that in my original approach, I would do all the hard work (research, pictures, angles) and not really benifit from their posts. It simply would take too long for me to catch up, and people simply are not as interested during the break. So why not continue the approach, but not post it until I'm done, and then welcome arguments. I think I would benifit more that way. The approach would be the same, I would just do it myself.

To Cypher80b,

I appreciate your comments concerning my map, and I will consider them at my next revision. As far as the Blast door map is concerned, I think perhaps more of the island is involved.


Mike

RunLostiesRun said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LostySmurf said...

Hi cypher80b,

thank you for your great contribution. Totally awesome work! I'm happy that you came up with this idea because I also had this area in the back of my head but weren't able to make it fit to all the other clues (plus, I've been quite busy the last couple of weeks).

I think you've perfectly incorporated the Blast Door and Ben's map. At the moment, I don't see any contradicting facts but I'm not sure about how the panoramic shot (from S03E01), which I consider as one of the most reliable sources, could be included in this scenario. Any ideas?

By the way, I'm not a native speaker myself (so your English looks perfect to me). If you drop some lines in German it would be easier for me to rate it... :D

Thanks again and keep up the good work.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

my hiatus is over now and I've really missed the discussion with you guys.

I've revisited the 'Alex' islet screenshots and I think you're right. It looks like there's something written after 'Alex' that could indicate it's just one of Rousseau's notes and not necessarily relating to the islet. Though, I'm pretty sure that the word is 'Alex' beneath the islet according to the letter kerning and their color. And I like the idea that the crosses indicate sightings of Alex. In this case, the cross marks don't have any significance to us, do they?

And I also wondered about the different levels on Ben's map but as well on Rousseau's. It safe to say, the bigger the plains on the map the less detail in elevation is taken into account (because there aren't any plains on the island as we've seen).

Concerning the structure of your blog: Yeah, it's always a tough job posting unfinished work and you really don't benefit from that. This is why I haven't released the new version of my map yet because there are so many unfinished thoughts that need to be analyzed. IMO, the best thing is to keep the amount of top level posts small and concise and post/discuss everything else in the comments (e.g. the elaborate explanation for the decision for certain placements or 'What do you guys think'-questions). I think it will be great and I'm looking forward to see your new map!

BTW, I have changed my OS to 'Debian Linux' and I'm starting to work with a new graphical editor (GIMP 2.2) because I didn't managed (by now) to get my 'Paint Shop Pro 6' running on Linux (using Wine). So if anything looks odd in my new images I'll post, please let me know.

RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,

I don't think Alex sightings help up directly, but knowing what the crosses indicate reduces the possiblility of a missinterpretation on our part. Any information is good. Knowing where Alex was gives us an idea of where the "others" where. The question is: why were they there? It also reinforces my belief that Rousseua is genuine. My only problem is why she said she never saw the "Others", when it's almost impossible for her not to, especialy as she explored the island for 16 years.

Oh, by the way. The marking that you are refering to as gaging station is typically used on drawings as a simple reference point, as in elevation benchmark. I know that maps and drawings are different, but I really think that it is an indication of the islands high point. I've looked at the screen shots of the area, and it would seem that it could very well be a high point. I've done drainage projects and used gaging stations. Gaging stations really only are used to determine a waterways depth, from which you can determine flow (using a fixed contour the flow passes through). Even if it's not an elevation benchmark, I doubt that it's a gaging station, since such a station would be placed in a river or stream. There could very well be a good reason for such a station, but I can't reason why one would be at the top of a very high mountain. Also, one of the primary reasons for a gaging station is for control. When you know the flow, you can make sure, using automation, that it is properly channeled.

You are right about what Rousseua's map shows. I know there are deep jungles that are impassible that are not shown on Rousseau's map. She really only shows the Mountains, and rivers. I'm sure this is where a lot of people get into trouble. They assume people can migrate anywhere in any direction on the island, but I'm sure that the islanders must take a torturous path to avoid impassable jungles, ect., that people don't appreciate.

I'm interested why you changed your OS. Which OS were you using? I'm using windows 98 because I'm too cheap to upgrade. (I don't have a reason to, also). I've thought of Linux, but I'm sure my software would not run on it. Oh, you mentioned your thesis before. Is it in english? If so, and you don't mind, I would love to read it. (At my E-mail). I love stuff like that.

Mike

cypher80b said...

Hello again,

Here's a possible explanation of the panoramic view. Not perfect but it could be.

PanoramicView

To runlostiesrun: Indeed is a small area for the blast door map, but if the barracks is so close to Losties camp site then i think it's possible. And the big question is "What else could be on that island, if all those stuff are in so small area?"

Anonymous said...

cypher80b,

I never thought of that. Now that I think of it, you very well may have a very good point. Thank you for the Panoramic view, it makes everything so clear. I really like how you tie everything together so tightly. The only question I have, and please, it's only a question, is where do you think " Hydra Island" is?. I could change my map depending on where you place it, but where would we place it? Do you think it's acually an island, or maybe a ruse to confuse the Losties? I know it's a lot of work, and I appreciate everything you've done so far, but we have to have evidence if we are to convince people this is the way to go. I think it is, but do you have any thing to back this up. I know it's difficult, but nobody said map making was easy.

LostySmurf said...

Hey guys,

Mike, that's exactly the thing that bugs me. On the one hand Rousseau claims that she has never seen an Other on the other hand she marks sightings of Alex. I thought of the meaning of the crosses before and my conclusion was that no matter what they mark, they are either not made by Rousseau or she is far away from being genuine.

Thanks for the information about the gaging station symbol. I've to admit that I even didn't exactly know what a gaging station was (I just looked up the symbol) and thought it wouldn't only be use for water but also tho control other things (e.g. electricity). But you are right, it doesn't seem to make any sense to have such a facility up in the mountains and I agree that it might mark the highest spot on the island. And I was wondering (after analyzing the HD screenshot) if the symbol wasn't even just a circle with a cross in it.

I used Win XP before I changed to Debian Linux. It's quite an effort to make everything work properly under Linux and for my taste the user interfaces of Windows or Mac OS are still better. But if you have everything configured properly, you will enjoy the performance boost and have an individual OS optimized to your needs. Almost all of the software I need (Internet, Video and programming tools) runs on Linux too (except for PSP6). Games could be a problem too, but I mainly play OpenTTD or some old LucasArts adventures (with ScummVM) and they run perfectly on Linux. I wouldn't advise anyone to switch to Linux completely unless he/she has already made some experience with it before (e.g. using dual boot) or has in-depth computer knowledge. It's more a philosophical question: I just like the idea of free operating systems (also see ReactOS for a free Windows compatible OS). Win 98 is quite fast too and if you have it running stable, I would stick to it (never change a running system ;)). You see, I could keep up writing about this for hours but I don't want to bore you with all this 'nerdy' stuff. :)

My thesis is confidential until June 2009 (because of the patent) so I'll send it to you after the 5th season. :D


cypher80b, thanks for elaborating your theory about the panaramic view shot. I totally like your theory about Ben's map and it's really well thought out. Though, I also disagree with your intepretation of the BDM but that might be caused by my mistrust of Ben's map at all and that on it the Barracks seem to be that close to the beach camp (in contradiction to hiking 2 days with a bearing of 305). Nevertheless, yours is the most feasible explanation for me at the moment.

Anon, I think we've come to a point making it VERY difficult to back everything up in detail (because of the huge amount of information we have). So when I see a new map I first try to rule out the most frequent issues that have to be respected (Danielle's map, BDM, panoramic shot, cable map and hints by the transcripts) and there doesn't seem to be any contradiction in cypher80b's map (except for the ones I've posted above (or the ones I've missed :))) so I don't think it's necessary to back everything up per se but it's totally legitimate to ask distinct questions (like you did above about the Hydra islet). Though, I have to admit that I don't see the relevance of the position of the Hydra island regarding cypher80b's map. Is there anything I've missed (maybe any clues about the distance between Hydra and beach camp)?

RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,

I know this is off subject, but I thought you might get a kick out of this. Jacob's Tail

By the way, check out Lost Myseries Blog. He really did a great job with the tabs and colors (I'm jealous !!)

Mike

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

thanks for the link! Yeah, DarkUFO's new tabs look pretty neat. I've to admit that I've only read his post with Google Reader in the last time so I wasn't really on his site to notice the change. I also like the colors but I'll never get used to the black background (it's somehow part of his corporate identity but sometimes I wish he would've used the nick "BrightUFO" *LOL*).

Hmmm, interesting theory about the Jacob scene and I think that it's possible that something like a tail smashed the window. But I have to watch the episode again to refresh my mind.

LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

sorry for the late response but I've been quite busy in the last days. Rewatching the scene in slow motion, I agree that there is something from the outside breaking the window but it's really hard to judge what it is. It could be something like a tail of a creature but I'm not sure about it. My interpretation of this scene would be that it's a limb of a tree that destroyed the window. But one thing seems to be sure: The window was definetly smashed by a mechanical force from the outside (and not by any psycic powers).

RunLostiesRun said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
RunLostiesRun said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,

I think I finally figured out Ben's map. I actually drew his map full size using his ruler! I could get very good screen shots of his ruler and able to discern the angles. Anyway, I think I was two mountains off on my location of the barracks and fairly close on the beach crash site. What really throws people off is the beach crash site is the Tailies crash site. It's simply the way they had to walk to the tower (if you remember, it seemed odd that the people had the ocean to their left as they entered the jungle.) The crash site is just a red herring. Anyway, let me know what you think,

Mike

Analysis of Ben's Map

LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

great work (though, it took some time to read the small printed notes :))! I think the coastlines look pretty similar and it's even in line with the S3 opening scene. But I've a question: Do you think Ben mixed up the two crash sites (tail section and fuselage)?

RunLostiesRun said...

No, That's simply the path they took. He knew they were coming from that direction. It was too dangerous for everyone to use the "dangerous path" on the southern part of the island, so they walked south(from the camp), turned as they passed the last mountain, walked North, followed that path until they actually pass the mountains to the east, went east and followed the beach down, until they came to the flats, which would let them climb the mountain. Remember, there were a lot of people, so they had to use the safest, most conservative route. The fact that Ben's map said BEACH CRASH SITE had nothing to do with it, it was all there trek. I hope that isn't too confusing. Check out the last episdode if it is.


Mike

RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,

Sorry if I confused you, but I'll try to answer your question directly.

I think Ben's map has "Crash Site- Beach Camp" marked on his map. I think Ben also knows the torturious path the migrating group is taking to locate the Radio Tower.


I think it is simply a coincidence that to mark the path the "Losties" are taking includes a reference to the Beach Camp. All this means is that they are coming from that direction.

When I get time, I'll mark up a map showing what I believe to be the path the "losties" took. This may make is less confusing. I'll also update the drawing to make it easier to read.

Mike

LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

thanks for the explanation! Now I understand the placement of the tail section a bit better. They just passed it on their way to the radio tower.

And yes, it is indeed very confusing (not your theory but the last episode). They even left the beach to the wrong side (at least it looks wrong). I totally agree that they didn't take the fastest but the safest path. It's a very good idea because the distance between the beach camp mark and the radio tower seems to be a bit too short for a whole day of walking.

Though, it's still odd that the Pearl is located in that area and I would prefer cypher's theory which seems to be the most sensible explantion for me (maybe with some little adjustments regarding the BDM).

Hmmm, I've got the (maybe very subjective) impression that TPTB place a red herring concerning the locations on the island in each season's finale (Season 1: the beechcraft, Season 2: Sun, Jin & Sayid's boat trip , Season 3: Ben's map). It's like building up a house of cards during the season and letting it collapse in the finale. Looks like a strategy to keep us busy... ;)

RunLostiesRun said...

Losty,

There is another thing I failed to mention. Ben's map does not distinguish between crash sites. I should have made this clear. His map simply reads "Crash Site- Beach Camp"
I placed the tail section in paranthesis.

As far as the station being the Pearl, I know this is wrong.

I know people beleave the station is the pearl, but it's not. It may be the Flame (that would agree with the cabling map) or the Arrow ( I would have to revisit those screen shots)

I've started cataloging screen shots (using Access as a Database program) of the mountains from every view presented. Also the islets. It 's a lot of work, but I'm sure it will pay of. I'm up to Par Avion (screen shots, not enter in database yet). It really is amazing how accurate this show is visually. I cant believe some of the things I missed.

You mentioned cypher's theory. I would be interested to read that. Is it available?


Mike.

LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

actually, they moved up the coast in the end of season 1 so there should be a gap between the beach camp and the crash site.

The station on Ben's map is denoted as the Pearl (see screenshots in this top-level post and Maverick's comment). Though, I also don't believe it makes any sense in that area.

Great idea with the landmark database. It's a really tough job and the amount of screen caps must be huge.

BTW, I meant Cypher80's theory some comments above.

RunLostiesRun said...

Losty,

I remember the fuselage beach camp moving North, but I don't remember the tail section beach camp also moved up. Perhaps Ben's map shows the intitial Beach camp without the update. I know they moved a lot to avoid the jungles, but did not notice the tail section beach camp moving as a group like the Fuseies. I think the Beach Camp marked in Ben's map is the Tail section beach camp.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

yeah, I meant the fuselage beach camp. Sorry, I'm sometimes very jumpy in my mind. My point was that it can't be the second fuselage beach camp. So your theory could be correct that it's the tail section crash site on Ben's map (I'm just collecting the pros and cons to evaluate your theory :))

RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,

I finally was able to figure out Ben's Map. It's really not that bad, its a map of particualar evevations. I acutally measuered his lines and angles ( using screen shots of his ruler) and figured out the meaning. I'll show it to you when I get a chance. The great thing about Ben's map is that it gives us the Barracks and the Pearl. What more could we want in a map

Good luck with your ISP

Michael

LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

that sounds really great! I'm looking forward to see your work (I feel like a kid waiting for Xmas :)).

Sawyer87 said...
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Sawyer87 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sawyer87 said...

his map dont make sence watch episode 1 on series 3 at the start we see an estimate were the planes landed from the barracks view the creators messed up aint they?

claudio said...

The very strange thing is that the crash site is in the "north" of the map, and the coastline seems too straight.

What if the map's north is down?
does that make any more sense?

LostySmurf said...

Hey Sawyer87 and claudio,

well, I don't think the top of Ben's map is North and since no north arrow is on it, I assume it can be anywhere. And I'm very sure the creators didn't messed it up. Some maps seen on the show seem to be canon with season 1 (Kate's map).